Costa Rica. June 2, 1991.
This is a conversation between Master and an old friend that She met in the Himalayas when She was searching for the Truth. This friend is now a fellow practitioner of the Quan Yin Method. A marvelous affinity which began in the snowy sacred mountains is now continuing at the Costa Rica Center. This fellow practitioner had studied with many famous Masters in various parts of the world, and has practiced many methods. Touched by her desire for the Truth and eagerness for Knowledge, the Supreme Master Ching Hai was naturally inspired and spoke freely without reservation. The eloquent dialogue of questions and answers between them was indeed "The Conversation about Truth".
Q. If there is a person in this world, a person who feels very bad physically. Can that soul who feels so bad physically take another body, the body of another person like a transplant of bodies?
M. What for? To suffer more?
Q. No. Maybe that person is doing very well, a very great job and the others want that person to continue in that job.
M. Nobody needs anybody that desperately. Nobody is so important. Yes. Even if you don't have a Master, another Master will come. Yeah! But probably you won't like it. (laugh) It is just that you're used to with the similar face and change another face, you would say, "No, not that one." (laugh) Ah!That's the only problem. That's why everybody keeps waiting for Jesus. Yeah. They think if another messiah comes he has to look exactly like him in the picture. If somebody introduces Master Ching Hai. They say, "No".
Q. Why does everybody have a different form of body? For example the faces are different. What does the face mean? What does the face of the people represent?
M. Do you think everyone should look alike? Then this is too boring. At least you never fall in love, and no babies are born. That's the difference. That's at least one of the reasons for the different faces. Okay? Yeah. You would never be born if your parents looked the same.
Q. I would like to know what's the meaning of the "face", in a spiritual life.
M. Nothing. Only the atmosphere. But usually most of the people when they practice, well they are very bright in the appearance. But the atmosphere is important. People would like to be around that person who practices well. Not the face. (Master hums) Okay? Because if you are to come to see Miss World 1970, for example, and the people tell you to stick around her all the time and look at her all the time, (laugh) you would not do that. Understand? You would get bored after a while. You will notice even the most beautiful people after we look intensely at their face for sometime we get very' tired. We get tired and we want to rest. But I know some so-called masters, some masters. They don't look very beautiful or handsome but people just keep staring at them and they never get tired.Yeah! Sometimes they just walk around all day long just to wait for one glance, one glimpse of the Master. Uh? Or they travel many miles just to see the Master and when they leave, they feel very bad. Okay. That's it? Why you ask this question?
Q. Because sometimes I can see people have a very good light, like You. This means it is coming from Your soul and I can see from Your face You give me peace. I am very grateful to You be-cause I am no good but You love me so much, thank you.
M. What is the difference between My face and other people's face? Similar no? Of course not. I mean, of course I couldn't look like you fellow practitioners but it makes no difference what kind of face. It is the love that emanates from a person, not the face, okay.
Q. That was my question and I wanted everybody to know this.
Q. You don't see the faces You only see the heart.
M. Yeah! Oh I see. You want to see My heart? (laugh) (sigh) There are some Masters who are very old. They have creases and lines, you know, wrinkles all over their face and not anything attractive but people like them, because of their practicing merit, the love that they have. Uh huh! Some people say, because My voice is very nice, or My face is very nice, My eyes are very beautiful, so people like Me. It's not true, because I have some disciples who are blind, who are deaf. They always come, every week when I am there; even on retreats, seven days. They never see My face, but they see inside and what they describe is just exactly how you see Me now. Of course inside is more beautiful huh? (laugh) Yeah?
Q. Master Charan Singh he already took maha samahi. He was a very big Master in Beas in India. He used to initiate all the people except the ones who were blind.
M. Uh why?
M. I have blind disciples. Everybody knows it. Yes it is the rule. It is the general rule that a person must be, uh the five senses must be perfect, in order to be initiated by a Master. That is the general rule since ancient time. Buddha also said that. But somebody must initiate them no?
Q. One day a disciple wanted his mother initiated and the mother was blind so he didn't tell the Master. He asked him uh, "Please Master Charan Singh my mother, can she come and be initiated?" "Yes, yes, you bring her I will initiate her." So when he brought the mother the Master saw that she was blind, and he said, "But I told you I can not initiate blind people, so I can not initiate your mother." The disciple got very, very upset and he said, "Please Master, please, please, this is my mother please do it." So the Master did a miracle and during the initiation he gave sight to the mother, and initiate her. Meanwhile she could see.
M. Uh huh, meanwhile only.
Q. Only meanwhile
M. ... and afterwards.
Q. And afterwards the blindness returned.
M. Some of the people who came for a lecture also, uh got their sight back in Taiwan, but without coming for initiation. They did come for initiation afterward but they wrote a letter or they told the story that they, their sight was restored during the lecture.
Q. And it stayed like that?
M. And it stayed like that. She had been blind since childhood, over twenty years.
Q. But for example, when you initiate them if they are blind, do You initiate them anyhow?
M. Anyhow! They got visions all the same. They saw the Master inside. (laugh)
Q. They saw the Master here.
M. And this person always feels when I come near. The blind person, one of the persons, she always feels when I am around. She smiles and I know. I tap her shoulder and she knows. So we feel very close.
Q. Is it because, the Masters they don't initiate because the Masters can catch some of the karma of that individual?
Q. You see. I thought the reason why he did not initiate the blind people was because he was saying that that's the worst karma a person can have.
M. Oh! There is worse karma than that!
Q. Worse than that! Like what?
To be blind physically is better than to be blind spiritually.
Someone who doesn't see the Master but recognizes the greatness
is better than someone who sees the Master and does not know.
Q. But for example, when You initiate the blind person, do You catch anything of the sins of these people.
M. I catch all the time.
Q. All the time.
M. I catch when people just pray at home. I catch it when people know about My name. I catch it when people know about My story. I catch anywhere. I catch when I see people.
M. That's My job. (laughter) Wait until you become a Master and then I'll tell you. Now its difficult,to understand. I do it by spiritual discipline, by the merits from My billion, trillions of years of practice, by the incredible physical endurance, and I do it by the boundless love. Okay.
Q. Yes, thank you.
M. In the Buddhist discipline also, when somebody, the five senses are not in order, one of the five senses is not in order, the Buddha... he is not accepted in order of the Buddha. There were many other kinds of pre-conditions to be initiated in Buddhism, when the Buddha was alive. But I've vowed to save the worst. So nobody comes to Me without hope. Among our disciples there are the worst people you could imagine. Even the Buddhas in the ten directions could not rescue them.
Q. Yes. Lord Buddha told us that there are five unpardonable sins. Now these sins for example are if we kill a Buddha, another Buddha.
M. Yeah, if we kill a Buddha or make a Buddha bleed.
Q. Right, or arhat,we kill an arhat or father. If we kill our father or our mother, or we split the sang ha.
M. Or kill our father or .. mother. Yeah, we make trouble in this...
Q. He said that these are unpardonable.
Q. Then you accept these type also?
Q. Then how...?
M. Otherwise who accepts them.
Q. Right nobody would.
Q. Huh, but then how can these people... then... if the Buddha said unpardonable.
M. I use My love to transform them.
Q. Then this is perhaps Your Christian side because Lord Jesus, He was always all forgiving, even the worst sinners, the criminals. Now, do You have to take on the karma of these people?
M. Yes. The law of karma has to be respected. But when the Master takes on the karma it's not like when the disciple takes on the karma. For example, when Jesus was persecuted, yeah, nailed on the cross, then many of His disciples or followers would be forgiven the sins. But if you pick anybody on the street and tell them now, you will be nailed for everybody else's sins, nobody else would get forgiven. Nobody had any benefit. Understand? The body of the Master is different from the body of other people, even though it looks the same. For example, all the cars look similar. Yes, but the Mercedes car and the Volvo car have different structure and different endurance. Now can you imagine at the time of initiation, when the Master has to initiate thousands or hundreds of people. He has, the Master has to house at least enough blessing power to give to each one. Understand? To give to, at least, to hundreds persons or thousands persons depending on the number. Now when one person receives, only his individual share, he has already opened the eye of wisdom and can see the visions and the stars and the heavens and hells and everything. And that force must be strong to clear all the karma of ten thousands of years of that individual, one, alone. And the Buddha said only one person's karma or sins, if it had shape, the whole universe could not contain one person's sins, one person's karma. In order to burn all the sins and karma of one individual, including all the five generations, at least, of him, you know how much force it takes. If not he could not hear the sound, he could not see the light because he is burdened and locked with his own karma. Now all that force has to go through the body of the Master in order to come out. And when She initiates thousands of people then the force must be more. Then the ordinary person cannot house this power. Even good power will make you collapse. Understand? Just like in order for this light to shine it has to contain so much voltage of electricity. This bulb might look similar to the other bulb but it has different structure. It can contain more power, more electric power. In order to give you such a brilliant light. He has Himself to be able to stand this kind of electric voltage. Yeah. So therefore the body of the Master is no doubt different. But most of the time the Masters do not mention these things, unless when asked. Most of the Masters are very humble. And it is not necessary to talk about things when it is not the time. Understand? And also, it has to be the right audience.
M. What four levels?
Q. There are four types of individuals. There is the one which is very very developed. Then according to the intelligence of the people, He gave different teachings.
M. Yes, yes, that is inside only. The initiation is the same. Internally, the Master teaches each one differently, and even the closest friend would not know. Even husband and wife, they have different teachings inside. Not only four levels, four thousands level, four millions, etc... yeah!
Q. So, Jesus would do the same?
M. Yes same. Jesus didn't have as much time to teach. He had only three and a half years and He got nailed. Also you must know that when Jesus was giving the teaching it was very' difficult. The political sensitivity at that time was preventing Him and His disciples, to be free in the preaching of the doctrine. Anybody famous, was envied by the church and emperor's government, at that time. And you must know at that time, you know, the spiritual level of the people was very low. In all the churches, they slaughtered all the time, just to offer, to make offering; slaughtered all the animals. And the smoke rose to heaven and blackening all the churches' ceilings and all the hands of the priests were bloody. And the terrible odor filled the many comers of the sky of Egypt, and Palestine etc...
Q. What about the Buddha, tell me.
M. But the Buddha... But the Buddha he was lucky. He was born in India where the spiritual discipline was already strong and most people were vegetarians and they worshiped the saints. And the political rivalry at that time wasn't very dangerous. Also Buddha was born a prince. Everybody knew that he forsook the whole kingdom. So no king would imagine that he would try to become a king and make a rival out of Him, uh with Him, with them. But Jesus wasn't very aristocratic at the background, and there was a rumor that there was somebody who would be born and be king of the Jews. So everybody was scared that Jesus would make a revolution and then become king of the Jews. So the Roman government was very nervous. You see you must also look at the historical background, to understand why Jesus and Buddha were different the way they were, and why Christianity developed the way it had and Buddhism spread out the way it had. That is the mundane level. Okay. There are other levels that we must consider also like the arrangement of the heavens and the spiritual understanding of the people at that time. Okay. But Jesus was lucky when he was nailed on the cross; he died in glory. He died at the pitch of his career. Should he have lived longer he would probably have been made to suffer many more things that... below his dignity even.
Q. Now for example you see Jesus always said that he was just fulfilling. Whatever he did, whatever words he said, whatever his actions were, he was only fulfilling the scriptures.
M. I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill. Well, every Master does the same. When they come they only explain the scriptures more clearly for the people. Yes. Without a truly enlightened Master, not many people understand what the scriptures are all about. You see a lot of misunderstanding. You know all the scriptures, in most of the scriptures the writing is all forbidding meat-eating, but you see the churches from very high to the low, bishops and the followers, everyone eats meat and drinks wine. God said, "Who told you to kill all these she goats, bullocks and he bullocks to offer to me? Your hands are full of innocent blood. You should stop all these sins, otherwise when you pray, I will turn my head away, won't listen to you. Repent and stop,otherwise I will not forgive you." Is that not so? Yeah. If God forbids even us to kill to offer to Him, how could we dare to eat ourselves and offer to ourselves? No? It's illogical. Yeah. Ask all the Pope's officials to answer you this one question alone. One sentence only, don't need to talk the whole Bible. Everyone is spiritually blind without a living Master. Therefore to be blind physically is nothing. I consider these people, who coma to Me blind to be very, very, very enlightened indeed, better than millions outside who have eyes but could not see. Therefore the Bible says, "See and you see, but you do not perceive; hear and you hear, but you do not understand." After initiation everything becomes clearer to each initiate. They wouldn't have known it before. That is called "illumination", yeah, "enlightenment". We are enlightened. We know the truth, because the Master has shed light on the truth, on the unrevealed truth in each Bible, in each scripture and let us know the truth inside. Even so simple like the sentence I just mentioned about the Bible, but how many Christians know? How many of them know? Let alone understand, They read it everyday. They read the Bible everyday. And in the church the priest knows the Bible by heart. They must, no, in order to pass the exam. No? But they will not pass the exam in heaven, if they do the contradictory things, with the Bible. "Meat for the belly and belly for the meat, and God will destroy both meat and the belly."(comment and laughter.)
Q. And Master, what would you say about the Bible and the Dharmapada, they, both of them, they talk about women. We are both women so this is quite an important subject. In the Dharmapada Lord Buddha mentions that He did not want women to enter the order.
M. I don't blame Him. Women are dangerous. Can you imagine, can you imagine the whole sangha all bachelors, all men with beauty and strong bodies and physical sexual drive with the physical body. Now, enters a few women. What do you think? It's already difficult enough for them to struggle alone and there now comes some temptation. What do you think? It is even more difficult. But anyhow, the Buddha was also considering the social custom of India at that time; also the difficulties in the sangha because they always had to move around under very difficult conditions and harsh conditions, and a woman probably could not bear it. Even some men could not bear it never mind women. Some of the monks when they just follow Me they just say, "I cannot catch, cannot catch up, I cannot catch up with Master. It is too much. It is to fast. It is too much." They all complain but after a while they all get used to it. It can be harsh sometimes. When I was in Philippines. There were a few monks and a few lay people with Me. Including one man and one woman newly arrived, newly followed, that were new practitioners. The man slept all day long and the woman could barely catch up. Now whenever I turned around and asked for woman.... There was also one uninitiated man around in the group . He was a political man because I had to deal with the Vietnamese refugees, at that time; so we had to work with some uninitiated political persons. And he was scared seeing the way I moved (Master pants to should he was out of breath.) . He was huffing, huffing like that. And one day I asked him, about that woman. I said, "Where, where is that, such and such, the woman ? Where is My woman disciple?" He said, "Dead. "(Master laughs) "She is half dead." I said, "What! I am leaving and then she didn't even come to the airport to send Me off. What kind of disciple is that? What is she doing? Nothing much." And he sighed very miserably and he said, "Oh Master, she is just an ordinary woman." (Master laughs) I said, "What you mean? What do you mean she is just an ordinary woman? What about Me? I didn't really understand I didn't mean to make difficulty. I was so surprised. I wanted to tell her something to tell her to do something for Me when I left, hut she wasn't there, so I was very, you know, kind of excited. And he said, "Oh! nobody can do the way you do." Straight like this. (Master laughs)" You're not, not a woman. You're not from this world. Nobody can catch up with You." He made it straight in My face like this. He said, "Not even a man can catch up with You never mind a woman." And I was so startled I had to think, I had to think. So I couldn't say anything. I still keep thinking ever since, whether it is true.
Q. You know one day, I was in the Himalayas in Jhotirmath. The Shankaracharia is there. He is the Pope of the Hindus. You know a woman, a female body is not allowed to stay there. I was in my sanyasi (monk's) clothes, no hair and they thought that I was a male.
M. So they allowed you.
Q. So they allowed me and I didn't tell them anything. I just played the game with them. I lived together with all the other monks, we had lunch together. My voice sounds like a male, I hit them on the back so I behaved like a man and I was totally accepted. When I went to take a shower I put my feet on the door like this so the other monks would not open it and find out that I am a nun and not a monk. Now it was around six o'clock and we had been with the Shankaracharia for several hours talking and he was giving us a lecture. To me he seemed like a very enlightened being. Then naturally I felt he was very enlightened this supreme Pope of the Hindus. But then I heard a female voice coming from downstairs. At that time we were all on pilgrimage at Jhotirmath and there were thousands of pilgrims. This nun was of the Saraswati Math which is the same Math (order) as the Shankaracharia. There were several men there and she was the only female. She was answering them because they were attacking her. She had bleeding feet because she was walking in the pilgrimage without shoes. She was answering them because they were kicking her out of that place. They were treating her in a very vicious way.
M. Very vicious. I know, I know, I know. They really hate woman. They think women are dangerous. But they do not know the reason, they're, not logical. They just blindly follow the rule and any woman that comes there will be beaten and kicked out. They don't care what happens to you. They just have to keep the rule. That's it. They keep the precepts blindly without considering, no understanding.
Q. With no understanding and without following the teachings of the Shankaracharia. The first Shankaracharia said, " We are all one."
M. They think a woman will pollute their order and make them impure, by their presence alone. They feel a woman is inferior to a man.
Q. They feel that she is the devil. They have reached that point.
Q. So naturally they treated her like that, with contempt and no compassion at all, because it was evening already and freezing cold with snow. The nun couldn't walk any more because she was already exhausted and bleeding.
M. Yes, fanatic.
Q. Fanatic you know. And with her there was another monk, also of the Saraswati Math, but he didn't say anything. So she was standing there like with twenty men against her. So I just couldn't stay comfortable with the monk's bed and sleep overnight there, then see the Shankaracharia at nine o'clock in the morning like we had arranged. I couldn't do it. I had to defend her because I am also a female body. So I came out.
M.You were there just for that.
Q. Just for that only.
M. Just to teach them a lesson.
Q. To teach them a lesson and I knew they all thought that I had a monk's body.
M. It was arranged so that you be there.
Q. God made this, you know.
M. Otherwise nobody could be as blind as you figured, to take you for a monk; a "monkey" maybe.
Q. Monkey yes, but a monk! They all thought that I was a monk, all of them. They all believed I was a monk, only male. They never thought me to be a female. So naturally, you see I didn't want to deceive them. I just played whatever they put on me and continued playing it. So naturally when this woman came out screaming for help. I went to her defense. I told all of these monks that all of them had come from a female body. You were born from a female. And that, I couldn't really understand, because in Hinduism they really venerate the Mother. The Divine Mother is very important to them.
M. Yes, yes, yes.
Q. But they would not give her any space, not even close to the bathroom in any sheltered place. We were on a high hill. That meant that she had to walk down that hill with bleeding feet and half dead, all that hill.
M. Then they worship the Divine Mother.
Q. They do. The Divine Mother, they do. But they did not see this in this poor nun. So naturally, I felt responsible to take care of this nun and get a place for her where she could sleep and eat. So I told them the truth, that I didn't have a male body but a female body, also.
(Master said," Precept is to protect the practitioners. We shouldn't attach to it without flexibility and then cause harm.")
M. So now you keep your precept, at least....
Q. To speak the truth, yes. So then you know I took this poor nun with me as well as the other monk of the Saraswati Math. The people, the other men were horrified, and I told them that I wouldn't see the Shankaracharia.
Q. Yes, horrified. And I told them that if the Shankaracharia taught us that we are all one, then we also have to show this in our acts. Then with the other monk we took this poor nun. You know it was all filled up, the whole place, with thousands of pilgrims. Can you guess where we got a place for this nun who is a Hindu nun? It was with the Sikhs.
M. What? Oh! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Q. The Sikhs. You know the Hindus and the Sikhs were fighting and killing each other.
M. The Sikhs accepted them when there was no other place.
Q. The Sikhs were the only ones who opened the door for the Hindu nun. Then I saw the absurdity of religion.
M. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Only love that counts; not religion. Sikhs are fine individuals.
Q. They are beautiful. I spent time with them and studied with Sikh saints.
M. Yes, Hindu people are also fine individuals from what I have seen, but there are also some fanatics like what you have seen.
Q. Yet there are other saints, other Hindu saints who don't make a difference between a male and a female. But you see it is difficult to find a female saint. You are the second one I have met in my life, because they are not there. It's always male bodies who take the sainthood.
M. They are stronger, so they took all the places. Woman can not fight with men, so they give up. Also, woman normally don't have a big ego. If some people have so big, a great competition going on, she would rather say, "Okay, then you sit." Women are trained, in the family, to take the second place, also in the saint kingdom. Males are normally very aggressive and have ego, a big ego. No wonder they occupy all the seats even the saint seats. That's what happens. All the women have done great service to mankind. Without woman no male was ever born and after they are born they continue to attack woman and degrade woman; after woman has carry them, fed them, and nourished them, and educated them. Anyhow that's the battle of the ego. In the Kingdom of God there is no male,no female. Okay. I feel like a female when I want to feel like a female and I feel like a male when I want to feel like a male.
Q. True, I do the same.
M. According to the situation.
M. And the necessity of the moment. Otherwise I am neither male nor female. If I am a male, I couldn't be Buddha. If I am a female I couldn't be Buddha. If I am a female I couldn't be a Buddha either because if you are fixed in a frame, you couldn't be Buddha. You have to be flexible.
M. You didn't read the Lotus Sutra? the Buddhist Lotus Sutra? When the Buddha was alive. There was a Bodhisattva called Manjusri. When all the Bodhisattvas assembled together, they asked Manjusri, "Ah, you have been teaching all over place. Has anybody become Buddha under your teaching?" Manjusri said, "Yes, yes, there was one little female dragon. She became Buddha. She was only eight years old." So that is a curse on all males. No male ever became Buddha so young, including Shakyamuni Buddha. They have to be over thirty, in a male body and in a human body. That little dragon girl, eight years old became Buddha. They play jokes sometimes. Now if a little dragon girl can become Buddha why couldn't I, why couldn't I become a Buddha? Yes. If she's only eight years old how much time could she have had to practice? At the most is eight years, yeah. And she could become Buddha already. I am over thirty years, forty. How can I not become Buddha? Illogical! So you see they,they are fighting with themselves. Yeah! I don't care about the scriptures even. Because at one time, at one point, Buddha spoke to different disciples, and at the other time he spoke to a different group of disciples. Oh! He said many things. And some of the scriptures were not even spoken on earth, therefore the levels are different. For example, the scripture of the Earthstore Buddha, Bodhisattva. It was spoken in heaven. When we open the sutra it immediately introduced that the Buddha went to such and such heaven and all the Bodhisattvas assemble there together. Okay. And the disciples, the advanced disciples went over there and heard everything, recorded it, came back, wrote it again down. Therefore, how can we explain the differences or sometimes the paradoxes between the scriptures. It is because the Buddha taught the earth people differently, and taught heaven people differently, and taught the Bodhisattvas differently. There are many scriptures, were not spoken on earth, like the Flower Gallon Scripture; not about the earth.
M. Well, that is another thing. The Heart Sutra the Buddha spoke to the uh... to one disciple only, to Sariputra.
Q. Oh, Sariputra! So... because he was the one who could understand what He was saying.
M. Uh, huh. Okay. So everybody else just catch it and then read aloud and then, and how you say, recite it everyday without knowing anything. It's not the level of Sariputra - the people.
Q. It is like when I started to study the Lotus Sutra I couldn't understand it either.
M. Oh, it's very easy.
Q. Difficult, difficult.
M. It's easy now.
Q. Yes, yes, yes.
M. You read it again.
Q. Okay, I will try.
M. I often mention the Lotus Sutra especially the chapter of Quan Yin Bodhisattva.
Q. Tell us.
M. If you understand Chinese it would have been clear, you'd be clear about it. I cannot tell again the same thing. It's in a different language.
Q. Yeah, tell us, tell us, tell us.
M. No, I am not in the mood now. It has to be in the right time. It has been recorded in Chinese, especially this time, in the retreat. Why don't you ask someone to explain it to you in Spanish. When the retreat video or tapes come out, you explain that part for them. (Master instructed one of the practitioners) Well, you could ask Me what you don't understand. What you don't understand you could ask Me.
Q. For example, you know once Buddha was asked by a man who believed in God if there is a God, another man who didn't believe in God, if there is a God, and then the Bodhisattva was sitting there also waiting for an answer. Then Lord Buddha...
M. gave three different answers.
Q.... three different answers.
M. Is that right?
Q. Right yeah! So he acted like a mirror in a way but he never gave an answer. Explain. Please explain.
M. Tell Me what answer you don't understand. Ask Me and I'll answer.
Q. You know the first man who believed, He just answered what the man already believed. He said "Yes, there is a God." To the one who didn't believed He answered," There is no God." So He contradicted the first answer. (M. the third) To the Bodhisattva of course, He didn't talk at all.
M. This was very compassionate. He should have beaten him, beaten him. Yeah! Fancy entering Bodhisattvahood already and still asking that silly question. Understand? For the man who believed there is God. He was so firm in his faith, and that so-called God comforted his life and kept his life in order and disciplined. Therefore the Buddha did not want to break that pattern without having the time to build a new image of God for him. For example, I also always mention about God. If people believe in God, and they keep their life pure and disciplined and also meditate on God, then why should I say there is no God. It is no good for them. It confuses them and breaks everything that they ever cherished and built up; and they base their life on it. Okay. And for the one who believed that there is no God, probably that man was enlightened. You know, he knows there's no such God as we imagine God. But we have to be enlightened, to know that God is a force of power, love and wisdom. It's not the so-called God that most people believe. You know the imagination of human beings; there is no such God. That's what he meant. The second man meant that there is no such God. But the Buddha of course understood what he meant and understood his level, so he confirmed it. Yes, yes, no God. When that person already understood what God is, means it is not a personal kind of person, or somebody who you imagine would do this and that for you at your request, and things like that, then the Buddha just confirmed it. He said, "Okay, you are fine. That's good." That doesn't mean the Buddha is an atheist. It's just that He truly understood what God is. Not simply a norm but the true God. A God without having to say, God. Do you understand? A wisdom, a loving power and all compassionate.
Q. The universal, not one person not the single person.
M. Yes , yes, not the God like most people think.
Q. I believe it.
M. And the third , the Bodhisattva, of course he shouldn't have asked this silly question, if he called himself a Bodhisattva!
M. Yes, okay. Anything else. Oh! yes, yeah well, the Bodhisattva did say , "Why did you answer the first man yes and the second man no? " Silly question of course. Yeah ! First it had nothing to do with him. It's not his business whether the Buddha said yes or no. Yeah! He should have understood. Anything else. You are clear?
Q. Yes. Now we look at Jesus. We see that Jesus totally penetrates the old scriptures of the Jews and he becomes part of that message of the messiah.
M. Come on, you are finished?
Q. So when I look at the Jews and then I question myself. Lord Jesus knew he had to die the way he died, because he went once to ask God, "Please Lord can you take this cup away form me?" He didn't want to die like that.
M. Means, can you take this bitter cup from me? He didn't want to drink that; or that is the human part of any Master. I would ask the same thing, if I were to be crucified. I ask the same thing when God demands Me to do something that I don't like to do; I do it at the end. The Master does many things superhumanly and endures every situation, and has infinite patience and love. But doesn't mean the Master loves to do anything or everything. Well they are scared too. They don't like it too; but they have to do it. If they love to do everything, then what is the value of their sacrifice? Understand?
Q. Yes I understand
M. For example you love money very much. You care about it, and you earn a lot money because .... you want... you work hard for money. But when necessary you give it to someone. Not because you don't like the money. If you don't like money, why do you work so hard? But because you had to do it for the sake of other people. Therefore the money you offer is even more valuable, because you like it. If you give something away that you don't like or you wanted to get rid of... then what ... what is the point of talking about it?
Q. But why would God want Jesus to die the way he died?
M. Otherwise His disciples would not be cleansed of the sins. The body of the Master is for two reasons. First, for the disciples of the physical world to be able to see. They couldn't see the astral body of the Master. Second, the body of the Master is for sacrifice. It is to receive all the things that the disciple has to get rid of, to deposit the sins of the disciples. And then to be... has to be cleansed out. For example ... you know the garbage collector. First they have to collect... they have to bring the garbage up to their body. No? They have to use their hands to take the garbage can and then put on the car. And then afterward, dump them into the sea or in the garbage area. But meanwhile their body must be dirty and smell of garbage. The garbage will not stay with them, the smell will not stay forever . But they have to wait until they go home and wash it, and have time to wash it. At least , when they fetch the garbage , the garbage is with them , even just for just five minutes or five seconds. Understand?
Q. The Buddha also had His disciples, but he didn't have to die like that.
M. There are some reasons . First, the Buddha was in India. India was ... a country of holiness. For many thousands of years people were vegetarians, and reading scriptures, and practicing, and worshiping the saints. They are pure in the heart. Second, the Buddha also suffered. but differently, mentally, yeah! One day he couldn't stand it. He left all the disciples and went to the jungle alone, for three months. Of course the Masters don't often mention about the inner suffering, but there is. It is there. No Master escapes it. And sometimes the inner suffering is so great, too much, it surfaces on the body like a very unreasonable sickness or something like that, or outside attack, or criticism. You see, the inner suffering is worse than the outer suffering. It's worse than hell... sometimes. Sometimes, when the Master is smiling, or making jokes, or dancing, or eating, even with the disciples, nobody knows what's going on inside. The Master often suffers behind closed door. You remember Milarepa?
Q. Oh, yes I do.
M. Even he didn't have that many disciples. He didn't have that many disciples . He wasn't that famous at that time and he hid himself in the Himalaya caves . He didn't even go in the cities and make himself available to lecture in open public Only some came to him by word of mouth. And you know, even at that time, to go to the Himalayas to see him, this was an incredible thing even; so not many people could do that. You know how inaccessible the Himalaya regions are? So you can imagine not many people came to see him. Even then he suffer from poison. Some people were jealous and poisoned him. That's why he died. That's why he died. And he knew it, but then he accepted it. Just like Jesus knew he was going to be crucified, hut he accepted it. No choice, no choice. When God wants, you have no choice.
Q. Why does God want things like that?
M. To clean the sins, to clean the sins of the disciples.
Q. Couldn't He invent a positive way of cleaning the sins of the disciples ?
M. No, because this world is not positive. This is a world of the negative power. Once you enter this world you have to do according to the law of karma. Otherwise you upset the kingdom of this physical world and it becomes chaotic. And everybody just does what they want and they always get away with it. Killing, stealing, and doing every bad thing, and nobody gets punished.
M. They did. That's only the last part of the play. There were more dramatic things going on while they were alive.
Q. What about Swami Vivikananda who didn't die like that?
M. How did he die?
Q. I don't know . I didn't hear that he had any cancer or leprosy or any thing like that.
M. But he had other things. Not all die from cancer or are crucified. No?
Q. Like Sri Aurobindo just had a samadhi and the Mother also.
M. The inner suffering, the internal suffering and the mental suffering is worse than physical suffering. I told you. But I told you , there are also different levels of Masters. If you don't initiate disciples, and don't take their karma, you don't have to suffer. Vivikananda wasn't a Master of their level.
Q. And Sri Aurobindo?
M. Don't ask me. Otherwise everybody would scold me. Masters are different from teachers.
Q. But all of them have to go through meditation. That means the key for Masterhood is always meditation.
M. Quan Yin.
Q. How do you know?
M. I know.
Q. So Jesus also had the omniscient mind.
Q. Jesus also had the omniscient mind, omniscient mind.
M. Yeah, yeah, yeah! He did.
Q. He did?
M. Oh please don't ask me'? If I tell you many truths It's okay you can ask me. You ask intelligent questions, you continue. Other people I don't want to hear. And for other people they have asked so many thousands of times already and they have abused Me many thousands of times, already, and I won't let them do it again.
M. Yes. He was from the Essenes' order, who were always vegetarians, since thousands of years, and they had a lineage of transmission, at that time.
Q. At that time?
M. They were the "White Brotherhood" who transmitted the light and the sound. And at that time it was very difficult to enter that order. And you had to take vow of celibacy, and never to transmit the teaching... outside openly. Anybody who entered that order must be introduced by some elder members and had to pass through many years of tests before they could get the initiation of the final order. Then they could wear the white robe. And this order, they were fantastic. They were "love incarnate". And Jesus was the one who broke the promise of keeping silence. But it was by the order of the Most High, of course. He got inner message. Otherwise nobody of His order had ever preached openly like that before. First, because of the vow. Second, because of the danger. Therefore, after Jesus was crucified. Oh no, after He openly preached, and at that time or before His crucifixion, all of the "White Brotherhood" were watching Him closely, trying to protect Him, in many ways. But they couldn't help it. It was they who snatched Him from the cross, or from the cave. Anyway, I talked too much. I talk too much about unnecessary things. Ask some other question.
Q. Yes, tell me about the Egyptians.
Q. Yeah, the Egyptians. Egyptians! Egyptians they were high initiates also.
M. Yes, because at that time they had a real living Master - Moses. When Moses was there, they were initiated, some of them were initiated by him and kept the lineage, for a while. And at that time, that was why they believed they were the children of God. Just like you believe you are the children of God now, entering the sainthood after initiation. With a real living Master, anybody is a high initiate; without, neither Egypt, nor Palestine nor anyone is highly initiated. It's the inner power that opens, through the Master. It's not the outside scriptures and rituals.
Q. Now tell me, why did Moses make these two mistakes? One was that he killed, remember, he killed those Egyptians, and then he left for forty years to the desert.
M. That was before he was enlightened.
Q. Also, when he disobeyed the Father, when the Father told him about the water. He didn't have faith and he continue to....
M. Yeah, that's the human part of Moses.
Q. That's the human part of Moses.
M. There are many nonsense. For example, you know God.... Oh, there is so much something nonsense in this scripture ... I don't want to talk about it .... Is it okay? Can I talk?
M. For example we say, God made the world in seven days, six days. But then when He wanted to make the ten commandments it took forty days and when ... and supposed to be very holy and untouchable, I mean respectable. But when Moses came down and saw everyone making merry, and drinking, and making silly, he broke them! He broke God's commandments, that took forty days to make. He broke them, yeah! He broke the stones that inscribed God's commandments. It was supposed to have been written by God's hand. Is that not so? Okay. And then, when people repented, okay, He came and made them again and this time quicker! If you asked Me again, we would be in trouble. I might talk, and My talk might not please the church or anybody else. Sometimes I don't talk because I don't want to offend people. No offense?
Q. No, they say you don't offend.
M. Okay, all of you are Christians. What shall I do?
Q. I am both. I'm Buddhist and Christian. Listen, and then when God gets angry. How can a God get angry with his people?
M. This is an interpretation of humans. When we say God is angry, it means the law of karma is at work. And at least the Lord, the God of Karma is angry, not the Almighty.
Q. Therefore Moses could not enter the promised land, only see it, for this reason. His own karma came upon him. Is that it?
M. It is a kind of collective karma of the group, of the Egypt... of the Jewish people. Because God had helped them through many disasters and showed them many miracles during their "exodus". Helped them, saved them, and gave them food and drink, and they never had to worry about anything; but then they disobeyed God. You see? And they wanted something opposite to God's order. They disobeyed God's commandment. Therefore, what they refused, they can not have it again. Or at least, it will have to be reconsidered after a long time. For example , you go to see a doctor and you have emergency, and the doctor immediately wants to take care of you. But then you look at the doctor, and then you don't like it, and or you get cured, and you are ungrateful, and you say, "Ah, I don't want to see you. I want this. I want that!" And the doctor, of course, cannot argue with you too long, he has to take care of other people. Then later when you feel sorry, you want it again. No! there is someone else in the line and you have to wait. You refused it! The doctor is operating on someone else and he cannot just leave him open, unfixed, and go and take care of you because you were before. You refused your appointment. And then you say the doctor is angry with me. It is not true.
Q. Now then tell me the fight between the Jews and the Arabs that is still going on today. God said that he will punish these people now because they disobeyed Him. He is going to disperse these people upon the world and then He will have the Arabs fight with them all the time until the end of the days.
M. Yeah, that was because they worshipped the jealous God. They worshipped the Lord of the second world. They worshipped the Lord of Karma which is the second world, and that God punished them. If they had worshipped the Almighty, or if their Master Moses was a very high order saint, they wouldn't have to go through this. Also, once you miss a chance, you have to go through suffering for many, many generations, many thousands of years, until the circle ends, and you are truly fed up with everything, and you truly repent. Then a Master will come and rescue you. One of our fellow practitioners, when he saw Me first time, he listened to the lecture and then he went home. He did not want to get initiation. He refused it. He thought it was not necessary. He thought he was a good man. He practices, and he just meditates off and on, and he does only good things, and he doesn't need a Master. And a woman, a woman Master! "And the Buddhist scriptures say woman can not become Buddha", so he said. But he was a good practitioner, from a previous life. He had the merit of meeting the Buddha and of becoming enlightened. Apart from his big ego, he had his good part. So when he came to see the lecture, he felt, he knew, he saw a vision, and he saw a lot of light and Buddhas there. He knew that the so-called Master Ching Hai is not ordinary. He knew it, not that he did not know, but he refused it. He said that he didn't need it, he alone was enough. He had good merit, and he always made offerings to Buddha temples and charity, and everything is okay, alone. So he went home. And then some of the disciples kind of pushed him. "Why don't you get initiation. It is a very good opportunity. You never know if you die without initiation, you never know when a Master will come, you know anything could happen. Go get initiation." And then he was kind of, how you say, shaking in his own conviction.
Q. Could the Supreme God be manifested in a body?
M. He could be manifested in a body.
Q. Whatever body he wants? The different disciples of different religions when they pray to God and they are sincere, they are true devotes of the Lord, all of them. Can they really communicate with that One of the fifth level?
M. Mostly they communicate with the Lord of Karma.
Q. The Lord of Karma is from the second level. The Jews call Him Jehovah, but that wouldn't be the same as Yama the Lord of Death?
M. No. The Lord of Death is in the hell region, on the first plane.
Q. So it seems like the Supreme God put different Lords in charge different levels.
M. Yama works with Lord of Karma, okay.
Q. So they would work only until the end of our days here on earth.
M. Yes. They would work until the end of their position.
Q. Do you mean, in the kalpa like for example there are four kalpas for the Hindus, in that sense?
M. Until the Lord ... until their karma is finished.
Q. That's serving, you mean, they're purifying? It is complicated. But when they are in that position they have God's Power to execute their work. Now the rishis and saints, they can interfere with those laws, because in many stories it tells you that they change those laws.
M. Yes. The Masters are above all these. Normally the Master does not use his Master position to suppress them. They just cooperate with them and take the souls across their region; but never suppresses them. Just like an advisor of the president. He has power over all the ministers and even the guards at that gate. But he would never come and say, "Hey you, you are only the guard of the gate." He would not. You know. He would respect him and come in. Show his card, and wait for the guard to open the door, and allow him to come in. He wouldn't just drive through the gate, without talking to anybody, even though he is very familiar in the palace. He respects every persons job. But of course when he wants to take somebody else, who normally would not be allowed in the palace, he can. And because of his presence, and how you say,his guarantee, the guard would let anybody come in with him to the president. Otherwise, nobody can come into the president's palace. Understand? Any ordinary person that goes with an influential person, to the presidential palace, can go through.
Q. You know, the Lord Buddha once said. He said, "If I could take you all out of all this suffering and ignorance, I would do it immediately, but I can't."
M. Yes! Yes!
Q. So in a way. He is not omnipotent. But the Lord is omnipotent. So...
M. The Buddha is, the Buddha is omnipotent, but we have to use our will.
Q. Why can he not just liberate us all?
M. No! Then it's no fun.
Q. (Laughing) But there's more suffering than fun.
M. People like suffering. The Buddha and Jesus can not force people when they are not willing to follow. People have free will. That's the difficult part. And this is the negative world. They have to work according to the to the order of this world. They can not break everything. This is the kingdom of the Lord of Karma. If you enter this kingdom you have to work accordingly. The saints are allow to come here to reason with people, to talk logically to people, and to entice them to come out by their own choice, and wisdom and will, not by magical power, not by hypnotism. That's why the work of the Master is difficult and full of suffering. Otherwise, anybody can be a Master, and one Master enough to take the whole world up, empty. But it's not allow, because some people have to be left here all the time, in order, so that other saints will come out and make connection with heaven. Because as long as people are in this world other beings can evolve. You remember the Bible, the Old Testament?
M. God has commissioned man kind to rule over, to be king of the animals. That means we have to take care of them, teach them, and help them evolve. And when the other animals come up to become humans, then there must be some other humans already more evolved, more wise, to teach those new born humans. Understand? There are trees, rocks, minerals that have to evolve and become human beings. If they come up and nobody teaches them, then they go back to the kingdom of minerals and trees again.
Q. How can a plant learn, for example, what is good and bad?
M. They learn slowly, with many thousands of years experiences, by absorbing the teaching from the energies, from the surrounding atmosphere. But their understanding and digestive system is slow. They have to be in such kind of atmosphere for many, many thousands of years until they finally awaken and know "Ah! Yes! That's it!" And then they will be given the human body. They are young souls. Just like it's easier to tell your bigger brother and sister what to do, but it's difficult to explain to a younger children, child what it is you want. It takes a long time for them to understand you. It takes a long time for them to enter college, and when they enter college, some professors must be there to teach them. Not everybody can become a graduate and go outside of the college, and nobody there to welcome the new comer, new students. Not everybody should become college teachers. But the primary school teacher is also important. No?! I talk too much. Don't you think it is enough? (Audience encourages Master to talk more.)